Cécile Berly “At Versailles, magic happens”

Historian specializing in the study of the 18th century and biographer of the main female personalities of the time, Cécile Berly has published numerous works on the Court of Versailles and in particular on Marie-Antoinette. His recent work, Lightness and Seriousness. A history of the 18th century in ten paintings has just been published by Passés Composés.

Comments collected by David Chanteranne, editor-in-chief

Could you tell us about your first memory of Versailles?

I have a very clear memory of it. I was not yet ten years old, dressed in sunny yellow. I remember it was very nice and very hot there. The castle shone under the blazing sun. I remember this stifling heat, sitting with my parents, near the Waterbed. For my child's eyes, it was as dazzling as it was enchanting – even if I was frightened by the mosquitoes present in large numbers. Even when I was little, I loved visiting castles and their gardens. For me, going to Versailles was a day of celebration. I also remember the crowds that thronged the state apartments. It was somewhat suffocating there. My favorite book as a little girl was Alain Decaux telling children about the French Revolution. A richly illustrated book. At the castle, that day, I must have been looking for some of the drawings in my bedside book, like the young Manon, simply dressed, moving in the gardens, and who will remain, in History, under the name of Madame Roland. During this first visit to Versailles, I felt, before studying it and understanding it much later, that this monumental ensemble was, above all, a theater set, outside of time. To experience it was one of my fondest childhood memories.

What are your best memories of Versailles?

What a difficult question! There is the creation of the book Marie-Antoinette at Versailles with the photographer Sophie Lloyd where we were able to enter all the places of the castle, the Petit Trianon, and the Hameau, including the most inaccessible, to reconstruct the personal and especially intimate geography of the Queen. This book was commissioned from us by Editions du Château de Versailles and RMN. Another very important moment in my career as a historian was the programming of the European Heritage Days in 2012 where one of the cultural services of the castle, in a way, gave me carte blanche to prepare them based on this figure that I love to study so much, Madame de Pompadour. It was a very enriching and educational experience. Following these Days, I brought together part of the favorite's correspondence to make her epistolary portrait, an original book in both content and form. And it’s always a great pleasure for me to be at a conference for the castle’s subscribers. They are passionate, demanding listeners and, for the most part, keen readers.

Your works concern the 18th century and more particularly women at the end of the Ancien Régime. What place do you give to Versailles in your research?

A place that is, in most cases, central. When working on the history of the 18th century, Versailles is never far from the issues formulated, the themes developed, or the ideas that span the century as a whole. Versailles is a geography, a political capital, the anchorage of the court, as flamboyant as it is decadent. Versailles, for the women and men of the 18th century, was never ignored, even when they spent most of their time away from the court, fleeing its gravity. Those who voluntarily do not appear there or no longer, always talk about it. This is the case of Madame du Deffand who talks about it or who constantly mentions it in her writings. In the 18th century, the court was not only seen as quaint. It is a sort of laboratory where new sensitivities are experimented with. I am thinking, first of all, of the stirrings of the intimate, which asserted themselves throughout the century, with two important milestones: the reign of Louis XV and some of his favorites (Pompadour and Du Barry) then that of Marie ----Antoinette and Louis XVI. It was at the court of Versailles that the most public figures of the kingdom created times and spaces reserved for private life and even a form of intimacy. This is just an apparent paradox. For me, the Court of Versailles has always been at the forefront of a certain form of modernity, which did not fail to create significant gaps between, for example, the royal family and the courtiers, or the court and the rest of the kingdom. As I often repeat: if we take the example of Marie-Antoinette, she was never criticized for being Queen of France, but for not sufficiently embodying her role.

Has historians’ view of Marie Antoinette changed over the last two decades?

It is the least we can say! About twenty years ago, when we wanted to work on Queen Marie-Antoinette, it was very difficult to convince academics or research laboratories. Let's just say it: Marie Antoinette was not a serious subject, or even worthy of academic work. I no longer hide the fact that all these years of training were strewn with pitfalls, malicious comments, and even unworthy behavior on the part of recognized intellectuals. However, over time and through hard work, I managed, following great historians like Chantal Thomas, Mona Ozouf, Catriona Seth, Évelyne Lever, or Antoine de Baecque, to make Marie-Antoinette a subject of history in its own right. The queen is the permanent clash between those who idolize her and those who hate her, between a hagiographic story and a dark legend, between the martyr and the villain. The idea is to dispassionate the subject and place it in a historical context that is of great complexity (I am thinking, in particular, of that of the Revolution). When we work on Marie-Antoinette, we are confronted with a mass of documentation, largely fabricated from scratch, and which is certainly dizzying. For me, it is time to make him a historical character, to place him precisely in his time, and to finally pose the right questions about archives that have been read many times without having been properly studied and understood.

You know Versailles very well, but are you still amazed by the place?

Certainly! Every time I go there, the magic happens. However, for the past ten years, when I travel to Versailles, it is always to work there. The closer I get to the Place d’Armes, the more the emotion grows. There is a real excitement: somewhere I relive the emotion experienced when I was this little girl who rediscovered a monumental space as if emerging from the waters (or from dried-up marshes), a place where history was frozen in an immutable organization, of Etiquette. But also a place where everything changed, in just a few weeks, from the convening of the Estates General in May 1789 to the hasty departure of the royal family on the following October 6. It is in Versailles that two different temporalities, enemies, but oh so fascinating, coexist: that of the Ancien Régime and that of the Revolution, where the monarchy collapsed and where our political modernity was born. As a historian and writer, it is these shifts, these different temporalities, these opposing sensibilities that fascinate me. Versailles is an exemplary geography. Furthermore, Versailles is also the place where the lightness of a century was partly developed and maintained. The place also has a seriousness that could have bordered on drama. Lightness and gravity, are two antagonistic and complementary facets of the same century. I am of course referring to my latest work (1) in which, from ten paintings brought together, I go back and forth continuously between Versailles and Paris.

What are your favorite places in Versailles?

Among my favorite places are these crossing points between public and private life. Open the door located near the Queen's famous jewelry greenhouse, and from there, observe her stateroom. On the threshold of this door, we understand to what extent Versailles is a vast political theater that stages the royal person. When Marie-Antoinette crossed the threshold, she was the Queen of France. On the other hand, behind the scenes, she may have the illusion of being nothing more than a simple individual. The Œil-de-Bœuf salon, very bright, and entirely devoted to public life, is a fascinating space that stimulates the imagination of the historian and/or writer. We imagine the courtiers wandering around, conversing, gossiping. A place teeming with people and rumors. A very small space, very cramped, touches me: it is the Poets' cabinet of Queen Marie Leszczynska, where she takes refuge to write, read, or meditate. Marie-Antoinette's theater, located near her Petit Trianon, is an astonishing, moving space, which allows us to understand all the misunderstandings and discrepancies that have accumulated over time between the Queen of France and party courtiers, then the entire kingdom.

What does Versailles represent to you: is it well anchored in its time?

Our contemporaries are thirsty for history. They are looking for landmarks: historical, heritage, and aesthetic. Since the 17th century, Versailles has fascinated and exerted numerous influences in France, Europe, and around the world. I have no backward-looking view of history. When the castle organized the first exhibitions of contemporary art within its walls or in its gardens, I found this approach entirely relevant and stimulating. From its origins, Versailles has been the place of modernity, which welcomes and protects the artists and craftsmen of its time. Today, Versailles is a landmark, that of a history just waiting to be dusted off.

If you were given a magic wand, what would you do for Versailles?

To begin with, I would quickly turn the page on these years of epidemic which were a severe test for all of our historical monuments and museums. In the collective discourse, we have forgotten a little too quickly that, without tourist activities, heritage cannot live, and cannot be maintained. In addition, I would develop visiting routes where the tipping points between the Ancien Régime and the French Revolution would be more legible. Explain how a political regime can collapse very quickly and, at the same time, participate in the creation of our political modernity. Today’s France was also born in Versailles. I hope the castle will find all its audiences again, and be resolutely turned towards the future by increasing partnerships and collaborations with researchers, writers, and artists. Versailles has such potential that it is up to it to actively participate in the culture of tomorrow